Agent Essentials

Shop Talk - The Real Estate Agent Podcast


29: Michael Carr and Tonya Eberhart

We talk branding for real estate agents with Tonya Eberhart and Michael Carr, partners at BrandFace.
October 9, 2019

We talk branding for real estate agents with Michael Carr and Tonya Eberhart, partners at BrandFace.

Branding is like if you try to leave for vacation with your suitcases but you don't know where you're going or how you'll get there.

Tonya Eberhart

About This Episode

Tonya Eberhart is an author and the founder of BrandFace, an organization dedicated to helping business leaders brand themselves better. Michael Carr is a seasoned real estate agent and auctioneer, once licensed in 27 states, and today serves as the COO at BrandFace.

In this episode, we discuss how branding can transform your business. Everyone has a unique story to tell, and by weaving it into your business's DNA, you'll not only stand apart but stick in the minds of your customers.

BrandFace: https://brandfacerealestate.com/
BrandFace's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBJe0BP4xSXXOJ_5_10ZObA

Episode Transcript

JON: Hello and welcome to Shop Talk: The Real Estate Show. I'm Jon Forisha and joining me on this episode are Tonya Eberhart and Michael Carr, founders and partners of BrandFace, an organization dedicated to helping you brand yourself and your business better. First of all, Tonya and Michael, thank you for joining me.

TONYA: Absolutely. Yeah.

JON: So let's just start with your background. How did you two get started?

TONYA: Oh wow. I'm going to let Michael answer that when I do, we want to know individually how we get started. Let's do individually. Okay. Individually.

MICHAEL: Um, I was, uh, raised by a car dealer and we bought all of our cars at auction and I enjoy the thought process of a, of that and so up. My desire as a young child was to be an auctioneer and I became one in 91. And then the guy that trained me told me to get my real estate license because I might be able to call a farm sale or something like that on a Saturday or something. And I did that. I did that 94, 1994 and I chased him election. We did a lot of TN auctions, a lot of estate sales. I'll shoot off a lot of properties, individual properties, things like that. Um, in 2000, I opened up a brokerage and because I didn't want to work underneath anybody else anymore and wanting to sort of like Carmen home path and I still didn't do anything with a brokerage until about 2006 in 2006, I was asked to broker a deal for a company out of Irvine, California that wanted to go after the Ariosa. So in 2007 when the debacle hit, we were able to have some successful sales in some major cities and we've just began to leapfrog from there. And I ended up with an office in Atlanta, an office here in the suburbs of Atlanta, in Jefferson, Georgia, and office in Irvine and the office in Seattle, Washington. And I ended up licensed in 27 States as a real estate broker. And 32 or three, I always lose count as an auctioneer.

JON: Wow.

MICHAEL: So, um, so we spent the next seven years of our lives selling property like that. And then I knew that obviously we're working itself out of a job and I want you to get back home and quit and get off the airplane for a while and, and sort of reestablish some roots. So I came back to my hometown or 10 miles, 15 miles North of my hometown town and opened up a brokerage and a that became Michael Carlin associates. So here we are today on your podcast.

JON: Wow. Are you still licensed in that many states?

MICHAEL: No, it's very hard to keep up with that. Yeah. You know, when the REO started coming down, you know, I had a staff of probably eight in Irvine alone and four in Atlanta and so we just did not want that much anymore. But we still do broker in 12 States and we're very active in six of those. And of course Georgia being the first one, but we just brought it back into a regional and, and doing, because arms length transactions obviously are something that are, uh, you know, a little bit more cumbersome than when I'm just being rolled in through a hundred properties in a day as an option. Right. So, but, or fiction to open up hopefully our, uh, our third location with the OMI and Jacksonville, North Carolina, uh, here in the next month. So.

JON: Great. Yeah. Wow. All right. Tanya, how about you?

TONYA: I started in college actually selling vacuum cleaners door to door, um, to pay my way through school. And I did that for about three years. Um, I ended up demonstrating and selling a vacuum cleaner to a radio station engineer one day who said, you know, we have a job opening available in sales at radios at the radio station. You really should interview for that. And I didn't want to at first, but I thought, what the heck? So 18 years later I was still in media sales and those first two, um, positions in my life are very instrumental in where I sit today. First of all, I had to present myself. That's very different as you can imagine. Um, selling vacuum cleaners, you had to approach the door with a story and you couldn't just approach it with, Hey, I want to show you a vacuum cleaner and you, you had to tell a story like, you know, I'm a poor college student, please let me in. I get credits for showing this even if you don't buy kind of thing. So I position myself that way. And that was my first taste of personal branding. And then when I went to radio I began to see how it transformed the local business owners in the area who were the voice of their brand in the face of their brand. It boosted their business like crazy and they were almost like rock stars whenever they walked into a room. So that piqued my interest a whole lot and that's really where it all started. Then I began dragging my radio clients into the studio and making them cut their own commercials and basically standing with a ruler, tapping on their hand, no, no, say it this way kind of thing. And then, um, and that is really a fast forward years later I had an an integrative marketing company for a number of years. And uh, and then after Michael just talked about the big real estate debacle when that, when that happened, a lot of people, you know, their business dropped and my business dropped at that point in time as well. I was able to bring it back up. But um, but I also learned that, um, personal branding was really the thing that I was most passionate about. And if I was going to focus on anything, that's what it was going to be. And, um, I was writing the book, almost finished with it when I met Michael actually. And Michael became the first real estate brand face client six years ago. Um, and uh, and the rest is history. So now gone from client to business partner.

JON: Wow. So that's how you two met is that he would, he started as a client?

TONYA: Yep. Yep. It is, yeah, go ahead.

MICHAEL: I had a, um, a, the first, actually the person that talked me into opening a brokerage in town, is her aunt. And she kept telling me, well, you know, we're in Jefferson, Georgia, she's in Columbus, Ohio. I had no idea she existed. And they, uh, but Ms Carolyn said, look, your marketing is awful and, uh, you need help. And she was right. And so I still, I still at every party in company get together and function. I still point out the fact that Ms Carolyn is the whole reason why. But what was cool about it was she was calling me and telling me how bad that was, and I needed Tonya's help. And she was calling Tonya and telling Tonya that, that, uh, that I was expecting her phone call. And so she told me like, who knew this? Tonya called one day, he said, I don't know if I'm supposed to be calling you or you're supposed to be calling me, but you know, apparently we're supposed to talk or whatnot. And a real parent trap situation. We call her the visionary, how we got together. So,

JON: Wow, that's great. Yeah. So my probably my favorite course in a that I took as a grad student was in personal branding. So, um, this is a great topic. I mean it's something, at The CE Shop we do online real estate education. So we're constantly seeing how much better people could have their business if only they put some more time into branding. Why do you think that building your brand is so important?

TONYA: Um, I think it's because I'm basically, I'll, I'll take it right back to the BrandFace mantra today is people don't do business with a logo. They do business with a person. So, so you really want to have, there's a human factor in everything that we do. We don't choose a real estate agent because most of the time, because of the brokerage that they're from, right. Or the logo on the, on the business card. Now a lot of people out there would argue that point, and I'm open to the debate on it, but the point is they won't choose a logo over a person. The only time you ever hear somebody say, Oh well they went with this firm or that firm cause they were a lot larger or they had, you know, better name recognition or whatever. It's like, no, that's not why they chose that person. They chose that person because you didn't build enough value in yourself to overcome that. And so, so that's why we feel it's really important as the human factor.

MICHAEL: It was, especially with us as personal branding. And that's, you know, that's so important, right? Because an individual, when we're talking about people that own their own company, and especially if they're going to stay in a market place, they need to be known. Like it just makes all the sense in the world that they recognize when they come in. And it's not like we're building a Coca Cola brand. I mean, it'd be cool if it all grew into that, right? But what we're talking personal branding and we'll even that story in is when people make decisions to do business with long before they ever even meet. Yeah. And I think that people in Tonya showed me I needed that. You know what I mean? I was hidden behind the veil that it was Michael Carr and associates. But that didn't mean anything to anybody. Like that could have been anything. I could have been accused of being a law firm or something. Yeah. It didn't really say anything real estate, but you put my face on it and it made all the difference in the world in our town that we live.

TONYA: You know, the story is really what makes all the difference because the story, and we were just talking about that today on the webinar that we do for our clients every week. A lady was on there, we had read through her biography and she said, you know, I've never put that much personal stuff out about myself, but I can now see how that would make a big difference in somebody trying to decide whether they're going to do business with me because if you can connect to somebody on a personal level that makes that relationship so much deeper.

JON: Oh yeah, absolutely. How come real estate agents are such a focus for brand face?

MICHAEL: I think that I could probably answer that. I think that it's because of me. Um, because I was the first real estate BrandFace client that Tonya had. I wasn't the first client, uh, that she had. She had been working principles for years and years and years. And then she just applied those same principles to me. And, uh, and so in doing that and showing me those stages, like she had said earlier, she was finishing up a book that I didn't even know existed at the time. And it was about, I don't know what, a year and a half after we started working together and maybe closer to that, she asked me, you know, where you could write a book, another book, I know if the salaries and just address it to real estate agents. That just became the focus of it because we end doing it. And I had at that time I had uh, three or four agents real tiny. We're still a small brokers. We keep it that way on purpose, like a boutique style. I mean, we want, we designed the whole purpose to be, you know, interactive with not only with our agents but also fairly close to our customers. And so she took that message obviously, and, and began to put that message out there and it just, we saw that there was a need even with my own agents. And then we saw there was an equal other agents. So it was just a natural fit. And then when the boat went, uh, international best seller and ache number one and eight categories on Amazon, we were like, OK, this, you know, this would be to be the focus that and brand face anyway. So let's focus on this a genre of business people that we think we can help the most and that sort of what we're stuck with.

JON: That's great. It's definitely a niche market and there's a huge need for it. Uh, so what would you say to somebody if they said they don't really have a unique story?

TONYA: Right, right. Everyone has unique story. In fact, everyone has a brand already. We just may not be in control of that brand. We may not have shaped it, informed it in the way we deserve to be seen. So has a creates like when you, when you have a meeting with someone, you leave there with certain feeling about that person. Right? That's really a brand. Branding is the art of differentiation to us though. Okay. That, that's how we define it. And so if you, if you don't feel like you have a brand, um, you do, everybody has one. So it's kinda like, um, like looking at, um, I think we were talking about this earlier. Um, branding is a lot like a, if you try to leave the house for vacation and you got your suitcases Pat, uh, and you're all ready to go. If you don't have your brand defined, you don't know where you're going or how you're going to get there, right? Because it's the path. It's, it says a great brand says five things. What sets you apart, who you serve, how you serve them, what qualifies you to serve them and how it makes their life better. Your brand is really a lot about the ideal customer even more than it is about you. So you want to create this authentic brand. You want to put out the authentic things about you to attract the kind of people you want to do business with every day. So if you don't have that path laid out and you don't know who your ideal customers are and you don't know what sets you apart and what you have to offer to them, it really is like standing in front door with your suitcases. And not knowing where you're going to go.

JON: So the brand gives you the roadmap. Basically.

MICHAEL: It gives you a lot of food focus, which is so important. Like, and we don't realize it, especially real estate agents. I know I've been one for many years and they, it's very, you know, and then our business, I tell people want to get into and I'm like, this is going to be the lowest paying, easiest job you've ever had your life. And it's probably going to be the best pain, very hard job that you've ever had in your life, right? Because it's all about the motivation that we bring upon ourself because there is no dream job in real estate where you just automatically just make millions of dollars and you don't really have to do anything for like, we work, we work, right? And everybody knows that. And so, um, it's, it's a, you gotta you gotta have that brand in place to attract those ideal customers that you wanna work with.

TONYA: And that's the whole plan behind it. And it gives you focus and takes those shiny things away that we get distracted with every day. Even down to, you know, rant, lawyers. Um, um, key is what anything that would be taken our time, even down to the way we prospect. All of that needs to be brought down into a focus and then targeted towards an ideal customer that's already attracted to you because of who you are. And it all blends together to make a personal brand.

JON: So what are the most common problems that you encounter when working with clients? Do you have any branding horror stories?

TONYA: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So one, I think the first thing that a lot of get stuck on and what I feel is like the biggest fear in business period, not just in real estate is the fear of focus. What Michael was just talking about it. Because we think we look at that as very restrictive. We only think of what we're losing, not what we're gaining by being more focused. And that's just a human nature to feel that way. Right. And, and so that fear focus definitely does that. And then, you know, not really, um, practicing it. I said, Michael says, consistency, consistency, not being, once you define and develop that brand, which you know, the focus and you define and develop that brand and put it out there, you have to be consistent with it. You can't just say, well, I've been putting on my brand out there for three weeks and I haven't had one customer yet. Right? This is a lifetime thing. And honestly, we've had agents that whose, whose life changed in a matter of a week or two. You know, it's not typical, but the moment you begin to know your brand and you start to get defined with it, and you know your purpose and who you're designed to work with and what you're going to bring to the table, it, it adds a whole new energy to your approach. And you're now able to walk up to somebody and with great clarity, say, I'm Tonya and this is exactly what I do and this is why I, I was made for you. Right? And then instantly people sense that, they know that. And it's almost like you were made for them. And so we've had people get clients in the first week of the program just because of their new brand. Because the moment you know where you're going, you begin to think differently and have different conversations and email people with different texts in the emails. And that whole thought process begins to change almost immediately. But the consistency of that is what matters. So those are the two things I would say, focus and consistency or where people go wrong.

JON: How can an agent better brand themselves?

MICHAEL: How can they better brand themselves? Well, um, depending on where the baseline is obviously facial recognition, that first thing that you gotta do, right? Yeah. We teach that, um, the, you know, how to in our program how to come up with a point of differentiation. You've got to do that. I think that that's the number one place that people go wrong. We, we talk about, you know, standing out in the, in the sea of sameness, which is what real estate is in so many ways. You know, we all have the access to the same, uh, platforms, right? We have the same marketing platforms. We'd have the same, we all can come up with the same marketing campaigns. We can, we can, uh, syndicate it to all the websites. You know, we can get it on our health MLS, we can build campaign sites around it. Like we all have access to all those same things. But what makes us stand apart? Like what makes us different? So if there was one thing that I thought that people needed to do to be branded better, it would be that you got to find where your different, where that point of differentiation is. And we teach, you know, it doesn't have to be something that we're not looking for the magic word, there's no word or slogan really. There's going to say anything, say everything and encompass everything that you are inside of that brand. But you know, you want to find something that makes you expand out that is an arguable point and not subjective. And then you've got to do it. You've got to do it consistent. Yeah. Yeah. That's compressed. That's the zip file version of it.

JON: Yeah. It's something that we talk about a lot, which is when an agent is starting out, you know, trying to find what makes you different, what is your niche and how can you better cater to people using that niche. Um, I mean it sounds like that that obviously is a huge part of branding yourself, especially as a real estate agent.

TONYA: It absolutely is. And Jonathan, if you sin, send your folks to our YouTube channel. It's at BrandFace. There's a video there called the stair method. S T A I R. That's our trademarked method for teaching people exactly how to go through those steps to differentiate themselves. That's going to help them a lot.

JON: Awesome. Yeah, we'll link to that in the show notes. Uh, so how much does social media play into branding?

TONYA: A whole heck of a lot. A lot. A whole lot. And I think it's because it, it has become the replacement of a front porch. Right? So we used to go, like when I grew up, I was, I had a front porch on my house and everybody in the County at some point in time came and sat on our front porch cause that's just, we were kind of like grand central station. So that was the social world, right? And now it's all on the social platforms like Instagram and Facebook and Twitter. So it is how we interact with people when we can't be face to face. And you have such an incredible opportunity to put your brand out there in a way that is both authentic and, and different, a little exciting, you know, so you have an opportunity to shape that. Um, and by shaping we don't mean creating a cartoon brand and putting a lot of things out there that aren't true. But we just mean being your authentic self and uh, and put out there what sets you apart from everybody else. And, and a, as Michael says, that zip file put it all together and uh, and display your brand across social media because organically it's free, right? It's free. And that's how we communicate with people. There is a lot of people you'll hear a lot of agents say, well, Facebook doesn't work. I don't get any business from Facebook most of the time. What that means is they're not differentiating themselves on, uh, on, um, social media well enough. They don't have a really defined brand that's truly memorable. So they may end up across the feed kind of appearing a lot like everybody else posting a lot of the same things and nothing really pops or stands out. That's number one lesson to learn, you know? Um, and then the other one is just, um, making sure that you consistently post things and post things that are um, valuable to people that really link back to your brand. It's not about just posting all your listings and open houses and closings. It's posting information and advice and helpful things that link back to the reason you exist as a real estate agent.

JON: Yeah. I feel like a lot of, especially real estate agents get very scared about new technology. So when they hear they should be posting on social media, I don't know where to start. Yeah, I think that's great advice that a lot of them could be your authentic self, I guess easier said than done though, right?

TONYA: It. It is and it is a very scary thing. And we hear that quite a bit, but we tell people, they say, you know, I haven't kept up with technology and I always assure them, look, we can teach you how to use technology in like 30 minutes. That's not the problem. The problem is what you put on that technology, like what do you put out there and a, and that is where your brand comes in. So when you're defined as so much easier, imagine waking up every morning and knowing exactly what you're gonna do that day. It's like, I know who my clients are. I know the prospect, the perfect prospect. I knew what I've got to do today. I know the message I'm going to put out because it all aligns with the brand. And it's very easy to be frightened by all of that when you don't have the plan in place. Just like standing at the door with those full suitcases in each hand and wondering, now where are we going? How are we going to get there? Is it, it's a great parallel.

JON: Yeah. So how should giving back to their community factor into an agent's branding efforts?

MICHAEL: It should be big. It's as big as social media. It is genuine social media, right? Um, like one of the things that we do, we're very active in all of the high school stuff and around and in and around the area and other things too. You know, there's a lot of good programs, habitat for humanity and things like that that you can be involved in at this number. One's important because I feel like it gives back is, is probably the most important, you know, and being active and surrounded by people that are also selflessly doing things. It's just a fun atmosphere to be around. It really is, you know? And, and we all knew it, you know, we're like Saturday morning and it's 90 degrees outside or like, man, well we'll go hammer on today. You know, where I have attack and vanity or something. But then when you get out there and you're like, man, there's some greatest day ever. You know, it's always important to just take the step to go do it. But it's very, it's invaluable as a real estate agent because I mean this is our people. Like this is where we want to be known. Where you, where ever your neighborhood is, right? Your geographical area that you want to farm and brand yourself and be known as and, and, and it puts your acumen out there and when it fact that you've got something to say, you know, all of that is very important. And then how you believe in that in your social media brand face needs to view all kinds of ways to do that in a way that it's not like, Hey, look at me, look what I did or look what we did or Pat ourselves on the back. But it is also letting other people in your extended community know that you're active in the, because if you go to their posts, you've seen that from them. You're seeing their baseball games. You'd see when they're doing things I, you know, what the soup kitchen or at the whatever they might be on or helping the elderly cut their ass off something of the day where a guy just stopped the car and got out and told his wife, he goes out and they win. They're named miss y'all. I'll see you home in about an hour. And she'd be like, Oh, okay. And he goes over to the state's arm or from a guy and you know, don't talk to me for a minute. And he cuts, right. You know where they posted that on social media? Fantastic story. And it's a fantastic thing, right? And everybody was like, you know, 95 million likes. I don't, we don't even start. Cool thing, right. We should do the same thing. And in our community, we're serving two purposes. We're getting on face to face with our neighbors that we want to sell their house and I'll help them find a house. And then we're also letting that out to other people in the greater world that are going to be headed towards you. To me that I have that same need field. Yeah.

TONYA: And Jonathan, I want to add something to that that I feel is really, really important. So for you know, almost two decades I was in the media world and I dealt with a lot of nonprofit organizations over that time. And, uh, it would always surprise me. The clients that I dealt with would say, I'm not gonna put, you know, the fact that I volunteer or that I give money or whatever to this organization on social media because I don't want people to think I'm bragging about that. I don't want it to seem like I want people to look at me, look how good, look at all the good works I'm doing. Right. And, um, but I've had this conversation with a lot of people and I kind of hope, hopefully help them put it in perspective. Um, I understand and can understand the humility of not wanting to do that and can appreciate that very much. But I say, don't hesitate to do that. At least sometimes because these nonprofit organizations very often are running on limited funds and they're running on a limited staff. And every mention they get on social media or anywhere like that is like gold to them. And you tag them, you sing their praises, you share things like that. That means the world to them. Because without things that, without people that volunteer and spread the word and share the news, they, many of them would not exist. So I say, if you're hesitant about putting those things out on social media, just rethink it. I understand where you're coming from. You don't have to be obnoxious with it, but recognize the, uh, and you can do it in such a way that doesn't say, Hey, I gave $50,000 today. Right? You can say things like, Hey, I just wanted you guys to know about this organization. They're fantastic and today we participated in this event or we, you know, we and many others contributed to this event that they're having on behalf of blank, you know, so and just putting it out there is not look at me and what I've done for this organization. Look what that organization is doing for everybody else and that's going to spread the Goodwill. And that's how you should utilize your brand in terms of a charity and nonprofit organizations.

JON: Yeah, that's a really good point. I mean I can see why people would feel like they're patting themselves on the back for that, but at the same time, I mean it's getting word out about an important part of their community that they may not know about it is. Okay, so we've talked about why you started BrandFace, what BrandFace kind of does, but can we talk about logistically, say somebody calls you guys up and says, I need you to help me with my brand. How do you start?

TONYA: Right. We do what, what is called the three D's. I'll make it super easy for you. The first thing we're going to do is define their point of differentiation. That's the first D defined. We're going to take a look at who their ideal customers are, not trying to necessarily box them in and, but if you, you know, we usually work with them on figuring out who those primaries are and who those secondaries are and then what it is they uniquely bring to the table. Not only as a real estate professional but personal things they bring to the table that those ideal customers might appreciate. So once we do that, we um, we generally come up with what we call a brand identifier. And that would be like a slogan or a tagline. And that is not a brand as a whole. That is just something that is kind of like a marketing hook, so to speak, something to get people to remember you by. So for instance, we have an agent in Fort Lauderdale who is known as home navigator and uh, and the home navigator. The reason we assign that brand to her is because she and her husband are very active in waterfront lifestyle. They're both competitive anglers. They have been in and around the water their whole lives. So they know all of that. Intercoastal waterway like nobody's business. They have a lot of knowledge of the waterfront properties and so, um, home navigator made it a lot of sense to them because she is very nurturing as a real estate agent. She guides people, which is what navigation means and it also applies to water in many senses. So that became this awesome marketing hook to just kind of peak interest in what's home navigator. That's pretty cool, right? And she can do lot creatively with that brand. So then once we determine what that brand identifiers going to be, we move into the development phase. We make sure that we are developing all the messaging for the brand, the imagery, getting the photos done for the agent that will resonate with the brand, the logos, things like that. All those puzzle parts and pieces. We call them branding elements. Once we get all those puzzle pieces in place, then we move into the third phase, which is display. Then we make sure that new brand is displayed correctly and consistently across all of their marketing platforms. So, so that's pretty much the steps that we take. And then from there they're off like a rocket.

JON: That's great. How much feedback do you provide during this? I mean, are you, you're, you're walking them through every step of the way?

MICHAEL: Yes, yep. We're working with them in the workshop. If they joined the workshop, then we're working with them hand in hand. We've got a team that work with us and uh, even down to our mind is our fashion expert to help them with their photos and pick up that really make them stand out even more. You know, you know, we teach in BrandFace. It's something that I learned years and years and years and years ago when I was just a little kid. And when we met this professor that I had taught my dad and uh, college or something like that know down in South Georgia. And we, we were talking about his accolades and everything that he had done and he said, well, I've just always looked at life like you shouldn't get a shovel full and a let alone the handle and it, you know, just being from South Georgia and dating and all those, all the time planting stuff I guess is, but it makes so much sense to me. I was like, you know, that's the way you ought to approach it, you know? And so we teach, I can BrandFace some of our, our, our, our blessings about how, it's just the tiny stuff that makes such a huge difference to be like, you know, when dad used to say he was in the car with us, right? And he'd be like cleaning the door jams. And I'm like, what are they mad or anything like people don't notice that they noticed. And there was, there's trooper that right there. It adds another element. You may never look at a car and go, you know the door jam. But if they are 20 you probably would say to somebody, match car show was Connie. And you know, because it's just a little stuff and we find it so many people miss those little things when they're trying to put together their playing. But people out there looking at him don't miss those. They, they, they, they, it's not that they pick 'em out, Oh look what they did. They don't notice that. They don't know. And then when you start adding those little things together, then you take the accusation of, you know, that 5% more effort that that 10% more effort that you give because now you have focus. It makes sense. [inaudible] difference in how your business transforms. It's, it's magical because, and, and it, it, people notice it, I guess what it boils down to. And that's what we teach through the whole thing. And that little bit of extra, you know, that little pizazz here and that loop is as they are with that little bit of effort and a little more effort. And it's the, there's the formula.

JON: It reminds me of Apple's packaging. It has nothing to do with the quality of their products. You know, the products themselves are the products, but how they are packaged, that changed everything and now there's however many hundreds of different brands that have updated their packaging to be sleek and minimalist like Apple.

TONYA: Absolutely. Absolutely.

MICHAEL: It's all about the experience.

JON: Exactly. Yeah. That's right. That's great. All right, well my last question is one I ask of everyone, if you could go back to the beginning of your careers, what is one thing you would've done differently?

TONYA: I'll go first on this one. Um, I would say I would have learned my lessons a lot sooner. I would have been more quick to change direction at times. And BrandFace would have been started 25 years ago.

MICHAEL: Mine would be, I would make bolder about, about what the work I've done up until this point, you know, and it's, I would've been, I would've been a little bit, um, a lot more confident. And that's another thing that we've tried to teach at BrandFace. I would've been more confident in not, not necessarily my ability cause it might, I might've been on Regent for something I didn't know how to do yet, but in my ability to be able to do it, uh, you know, and people tend to, I had a guy in my office the other day talking about it and he's like, well, I just need somebody to show you what to do in real estate. And I'm like, you know what to do in real estate now you have to go do what you do in real estate, right? That's, you're, you're, you're allowing this false sense of lack of confidence. And I'm on the outside looking in telling you it's not there. You just read it inside. And that's what I would overcome that a lot, some years if I had thought of it.

TONYA: Great question, Jonathan.

JON: Yeah. Thank you. Great answers. Well, thank you both for joining me. Uh, if somebody wants to learn more about BrandFace, how can they get in contact with you?

TONYA: DiscussYourBrand.com if you want to schedule a call with us and talk about your challenges in your goals and let's see if we can get you where you deserve to be DiscussYourBrand.com.

JON: Okay, fantastic. Thank you.

MICHAEL: Thank you, Jonathan.